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原始链接: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43962942

Hacker News 上的一个帖子讨论了“justfuckingusehtml.com”这个网站,该网站提倡使用纯HTML进行更简单的网页开发,批评过度使用复杂的框架。该网站咄咄逼人的语气和对较旧网页设计原则的依赖引发了辩论。 一些评论者认为,对于许多数据驱动的网站来说,HTML 就足够了,并赞赏它带来的速度和简洁性。他们回忆起 CSS 普及之初饱受争议的时期,以及 JavaScript 框架曾经是实现HTML现在原生支持的那些高级功能所必需的时代。另一些人指出,对于像 Figma 或 Soundation 这样的复杂应用程序,以及为了达到无障碍标准,框架是必不可少的。 批评包括该网站糟糕的移动端可用性以及它对``标签等过时实践的依赖。文章的写作风格,刻意模仿2000年代初的网络咆哮体,也被批评为缺乏创意。一些人认为,该网站忽略了现代网络技术能够实现复杂用户界面的这一点。尽管语境幽默,但一些人发现过多的脏话令人反感,并质疑其有效性。

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  • 原文
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    [flagged] Just use HTML (justfuckingusehtml.com)
    97 points by kyrylo 33 minutes ago | hide | past | favorite | 68 comments










    "AI's out here, a gift from the heavens (or at least from Sam Altman's nerd fortress) ready to write your shitty little to-do app in five seconds flat. It can churn out pixel-perfect HTML, debug your fuck-ups, and probably even wipe your ass if you ask nicely. But no, you're still humping your frameworks like they're the last lifeboat on the Titanic."

    Personal opinion is that AI will reduce the need for higher abstraction software libraries. ORMs for instance could go away. We will see wildly different software paradigms as the need for human understanding drops



    LLMs reinforce what the majority is already doing, because that's what it's trained on. I'd like ORMs to go away but LLMs aren't going to do that.


    Look — I’m old enough to remember when the “web standards movement” was controversial. I had to argue with my boss about using CSS vs tables. And I remember when you did need javascript to do a lot of things that HTML now does natively. JS frameworks had to exist to push the state of the art, because the state of the art got stuck. The standards bodies and browser vendors got their shit together, and now you can do things you used to need frameworks for in plain HTML. That’s great! But let’s not re-write history, here.

    Software is in a constant state of revolution and counter-revolution. It’s one of the things that keeps this job interesting.



    Somehow this site is both plain HTML yet also blocks the Firefox reader button, rendering it unreadable.

    ( Edit: Browsing to https://justfuckingusehtml.com/index.html shows the reader button, I guess Firefox has a really dumb heuristic for when it shows. )



    Readability's heuristic is intentionally opaque as a defense against targeting by advertisers and others who abuse the web.


    I was having trouble getting reader mode to "detect" my blog posts a while back, I was never able to find documentation on how it decides to show the button or not.


    Reader works in Safari


    We made tirreno website [1] with only HTML 4.01 and 1 transparent pixel, no CSS or JS. Works well on any device. Easy to update. Highly recommended.

    [1] https://www.tirreno.com/



    > Monitor and protect your web app from cyberfraud, account threats, bots and abuse with a single security platform.

    Sure but how is this better than setting up the font in CSS? There may be an advantage to not having an external CSS file, but setting up CSS rules inside the HTML file work perfectly well and are much more maintainable than this IMHO.



    It's super zoomed out on my phone, it doesn't have a mobile viewport. And if you do want to read text, you have to zoom in more than the width of the full page so you have to constantly scroll left and right.


    Impossible to read on mobile unless you pinch zoom way in and then pan back and forth across the page. A bit bold to say that it works well.


    > Easy to update.

    How does updating the font or color work? Search and replace on multiple HTML files?



    Nice! I'm working on a private Recipe bookmarking site that currently has no JavaScript and minimal CSS.

    https://github.com/bradly/recipin



    Sponsored content via a justfucking website. Bold move

    Anyway, I am firmly in the "self-hosting modern Sentry is crazypants" camp, but https://telebugs.com/alternatives/glitchtip reads like a hit piece, and not a serious "but, why?"

    I'll keep my Rails commentary to myself



    It's not sponsored. I'm the author of both sites :)


    Yes. You are the sponsor.


    Unfortunately there is a lot of stuff that can’t match accessibility standards without javascript (e.g. combobox).

    If you use a framework it’s much easier to implement these components.



    You don't need to swear at me about it, thanks.


    I think this style of writing tries to emulate what passed as "cool" in the early 2010s or so.

    Matthew Inman of "The Oatmeal" is to me a leading representative of it.



    It's an extremely intentional and all but plagiaristic take on a Zed Shaw piece from the late oughts. Tastelessly slavish imitation, at absolute minimum. At least the original is linked in tiny print at the bottom.


    Wow, I had no idea elements with an id attribute are directly accessible in JS.

    Combine this with Pico CSS or one of those minimal stylesheets (Water.css) to get better typography and spacing and you‘re set.

    I guess htmx is the extreme version of this no-framework philosophy… kinda.



    Wait, this actually says to use the implicit ID mapping on the document object? That hasn't been good advice since about 1999!


    What percentage of this was written by an LLM? (Asking out of genuine curiosity, parts of it are triggering my LLM-detector while others feel human)


    I loved web 1.0, but try to sell it to a customer.


    Unfortunately many sites are little more than web 1.0 inflated with a consulting boondoggle.


    You can sell HTML plus CSS in many cases.


    Stop reinventing the wheel. The web was doing just fine before your bloated frameworks crawled out of the sewer.


    This link has been posted a million times, and I'm always surprised by the reactions. Yes, for anything that is data driven, plain HTML is great. Maybe sprinkle some markdown on top of it but that's all you really need.

    But is that the only use for the web ? Are we pretending that the internet is only a collection of articles ? How do you end up with Figma, Soundation or Tinkercad with just plain html ?

    No you (probably) don't need nextjs with greensocks for your blog, but there are valid reasons why fancy frameworks or javascript might be needed. I think saying that plain HTML is all you need is as silly as saying that you should always use the latest framework in your project.



    TIL (from "Choose a week to question all your life choices") about:

      
    
    https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/...

    Weird that it's supported by mobile Safari but not desktop Safari (according to the support table). And not in Firefox yet.



    Same is true on Firefox: works fine on mobile, but doesn't work at all on desktop. Especially weird as the mobile week picker is just a date picker that ignores the picked day and returns a week it seems; surely the same could've been implemented for desktop.


    I could live with it ... if only there was a significant left margin.


    Even in a humorous context, cursing and insults land much better if they're used more sparingly. At some point in the essay they became distracting, and by the end I found them tiring.


    Yeah, I remember Zed in 2009. Do you think no one else does? What an embarrassing way to advertise.


    this is the best version of any of these I've seen over the years.

    and if anyones lame fucking corpo filter guard catches this, then let them catch these archived hands: https://web.archive.org/web/20250512141449/https://justfucki...



    The raw ugliness of their site is reasonable cause to do the exact opposite.


    The site is beautiful in that it is fast, flexible across multiple screen shapes, readable, and accessible. If only more web sites would make these choices!


    Did not work on me. I have never used a web framework, but now I want to use one just out of spite.


    * Except in email clients.


    I’m not entirely sure this form of satire lands the same way it used to now that screaming and insults are considered a normal form of discourse, especially in TV politics.


    Fuck I hate this moronic regressionist mindset. If your project is too insignificant to benefit from a framework, then just don't use it? It has nothing to do with the technology, but everything to do with your piece of shit usecase.


    Cleaning out the wordy, "oh so edgy" embellishment (probably authored by AI, ironically), here's a ChatGPT summary:

    HTML is simpler, faster, and more reliable The author rails against “bloated, over-engineered” JavaScript frameworks and build tools, pointing out that plain HTML loads instantly and “just fucking works” without constant updates or breaking changes

    Frameworks add needless complexity and cost You don’t need to manage hundreds of dependencies, CI/CD pipelines, hydration errors or “tree-shaking” when all you really want is a button or a bit of text. HTML has done this flawlessly for decades

    Native browser features handle interactivity Modern HTML alone supports expandable sections (

    /), native dialogs, form controls of every kind (date pickers, sliders, color inputs, file uploads), and even creates global JS variables from element IDs—no framework required

    Deployment is trivial “Just drag, drop, and you’re done.” No container orchestration, no multi-step build process, no DevOps magic - HTML is ready to serve straight from any web server

    Universality and longevity Everyone “knows HTML” - from your grandparents’ wartime hand-coded tables to your dog’s Fiverr gig. It’s been powering the web since the beginning and will outlast any trendy framework

    A call to rethink our tooling addiction With AI able to spit out pixel-perfect HTML in seconds, clinging to heavy frameworks is framed as an outdated habit. The author challenges readers: stop overengineering and embrace the elegance of raw HTML



    Why does this feel like an LLM's attempt at satire?


    > Just fucking use HTML. I shit you not, it actually looks good

    It can look good.



    I mean yeah I guess, but does this person really think people carry groceries in Gucci bags?


    The month picker doesn't function in FF 138.0.1 win64.


    It's working in FF 138.0.1 in Linux. Official Mozilla Build.


    And the time picker has alignment issues on Chrome.


    I wish html would just look good from the get go.


    How much of that is down to browser bare-bones defaults before the page defines its own styles, IIRC bare HTML doesn't define what the client must do because at that level it's not defining a presentation.

    I could see a browser making a change to have their defaults for an undefined style to something else, other colors and fonts or closer to reader mode, with an options toggle or flag to restore old behavior. I doubt many browsers would bother as unstyled pages are so rare for most of the web.



    Theoretically if pure-HTML documents without CSS/JS got more common, end-users could just apply ther own 'themes' to HTML documents through their browser.


    "HTML needs to require bigger CSS resets."


    I love it. A million thumbs ups.

    I am a data engineer and coming from scientific background.

    And guess what works most of the time, the simplest (not naive or buggy) solution to your problem that takes into account the human factor, the consumer of your solution. That poor being currently being ousted from the binary garden of Eden by AI cops.



    > Hey, dipshit!

    I couldn’t care less but… good luck convincing people with this attitude.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

    “without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views”



    It's satire...




    and all of this reminds me of the ancient maddox.xmission.com , which.. wow he was still updating in the 2020s


    Correct! The footer includes a link to the first one


    I see a “Hey, dipshit”, I press back button, not look for a footer.


    Not for everyone, I get it. Just move along.


    If you have to explain your joke, it didn’t work.


    I'm not sure that your inability to recognize satire is something worth broadcasting here. It's not something to be proud of.


    We certainly have a different sense of humour. For some waving a dick in public is called humour. Thanks for a compliment.


    While there are some valid points hiding deep in the sewage flowing across the page, it also misses a core point: The web (HTML/CSS/JS) is by now good enough to make actually decent UI that doesn't look like it's escaped from the 90s and is holding Geocities hostage.

    As is, the page mostly screams "I don't want to learn anything new".



    funny


    Yes. Just use HTML.


    Was this written by some tech sis? Feminists throwing off their patriarchal shackles seem to really enjoy crass language.


    What makes you think this was written by a "feminist tech sis"?






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